What r bored with torture?
Just in case you were in any doubt that waterboarding is torture -- and if you follow the news, you'll know that some on the right are trying to claim it is not, this should fix you. I warn you not to read it just after or just before eating, unless you have a strong stomach.Americans, this is what you do. YOU. Not some shitty thirdworld banana republic. Your nation.
And his third point is the hardest to take. We legitimise all those shitty thirdworld banana republics. When we say this is okay by us, we say it's okay for them too. We do not work to a different standard. It's not torture if they do it, and a harsh interrogation if we do, whatever Rudy Giuliani thinks (this is his line on it, unbelievably, and I have to say if any of you fuckers vote Giuliani... well, grrr, innit).
posted by Dr Zen @ 1:30 pm
13 Comments:
From the article, this:
There may never again be a chance
that Americans will benefit from the
shield of outrage and public opinion
when our future enemy uses of
torture.
made me sad.
It's not torture if they do it,
and a harsh interrogation if we do,
whatever Rudy Giuliani thinks
Rudy Giuliani is a douchebag.
- -
Okay,
Father Luke
The whole idea of torture repulses me and the idea that a so called civilised state can sanction it is in my mind simply beyond belief, but i believe you and i could quite easily torture people. One scenario goes like this your children have been kidnapped and buried with limited air the kidnapper has been apprehended and laughs in your face saying he's not going to tell you where they are, what do you do i know what i would do.
I don't believe in capitol punishment but i could quite easily kill a person who did serious harm to my daughter. I am sickened by the thought of torture but i would be greatful to anyone who carried out the act if it saved my daughters life. We are all prepared to kill to save our children.
We will all cross the line, given conditions.
I took a poll and it said my preferences were
1 Giuliani
2 Kucinich
3 Edwards / Romney
thus confirming that the major parties are both out of whack (because surely I am not). I'm pretty unlikely to vote for any of those anyway.
There is a world of difference between being willing to defend your family and being willing to torture Arabs.
You should be concerned that a test thinks Giuliani should be your pick. He's a disgusting cryptofascist, interested only in acquiring power. Think on't.
But if you are willing to use torture to save your children or prepared to allow others to torture to save your children but condemn it when used by a government there is a paradox.
One of the major problems with torture as an interrogation technique is that it's unreliable. A person who is tortured will confess anything and say anything that his torturers expect to hear, just to make it stop.
And waterboarding IS torture. So is sleep deprivation, so is exposure to extreme temperatures. And Cheney is Himmler reincarnated.
Gunt, I didn't suggest I would torture anyone to save my children. One doesn't base one's morality on ridiculous scenarios. It's like the "if you had to shoot someone to save your children" thing. You might well do that, but you're vanishingly unlikely to be in that spot. Also, my relationship to my children is different from the state's to me. It's a bit weird that you think Gordon Brown is your mother.
Dave you would torture a person to save your children, throwing up the argument that i simply put forward a ridiculous scenario is just a smoke screen. The fact is if the deed met you personal needs you would be in favour of torture. I can see that there is a tad of hypocrisy to my opposition to torture but it appears that you are not prepared to accept yours.
Gunt, torture doesn't achieve anything. How would I save my children by torturing someone?
And there is no hypocrisy in not wanting a state to do what you would do yourself in extremis. As I said, the state is not your mother.
If we do this to them, for whatever reason, then we have to be prepared that they will do it to us, to our sons and daughters who are soldiers, and then what? That's the argument for why I oppose it. I don't believe it's true that you can never get reliable info via torture -- and if that argument fails once, it fails always.
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the living proof that reliable information is not something that waterboarding produces.
And I don't like your argument, I have to say. Others can (and do) simply say it's wrong when they do it but we are on the side of good, so it's okay.
I prefer to stick to the argument that it is a plain moral wrong, and should not be supported on that basis.
The fact that it might on some occasion produce true intelligence does not mean it produces reliable intelligence, which is what it would need to do to even begin countering the moral arguments against.
Also, it's interesting that nobody in the Administration is claiming Jack Bauer gets results with torture, so maybe it's not so bad. They're denying it happens, by redefining it to mean organ death and other such nonsense. That denial suggests to me they know it's wrong.
It's also illegal worldwide, no ifs and buts. I look forward to the day when Alberto Gonzales or Donald Rumsfeld are arrested one day in some other country and prosecuted on that basis. Think it couldn't happen? So did Life-Senator Pinochet.
Gunt, torture doesn't achieve anything. How would I save my children by torturing someone?
Torture can and does work not all the answers you recieve will be lies.
The answer to you question is repeated here.
One scenario goes like this your children have been kidnapped and buried with limited air the kidnapper has been apprehended and laughs in your face saying he's not going to tell you where they are.
You would torture the SOB unless of course someone else would do it for you.
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